Rozan Ahmed is a “multi-potentialite” – someone who has multiple passions and takes pride in working across all of them, rather than having a single track. She is known affectionately as “Renaissance Woman” and her vision is to solve world problems through a combination of entrepreneurial, philanthropic and curatorial activity. Rozan is a champion of the arts for social exchange, youth development, and mental well-being, and believes that local creativity is the currency which will spur Africa’s return to economic growth and continental pride.
We discussed Rozan’s diverse experiences such as her most recent project, the Magic Drive, which builds confidence in orphans by conducting fashion shows at their orphanages; how she used art and culture to disseminate the mandate of the UN; and her creation of Saudi Arabia’s first ever female super hero, Latifa. We talked about the impact of the Gulf War and how becoming a refugee affected her family. Finally, we got some practical tips on how to explore the African continent.
My favorite quote was “the transformation was instant”.
And finally… we are running When Women Win’s first-ever give-away! You can win an original copy of Latifa, the first Saudi super heroine comic. All you have to do to enter the competition is leave a review for When Women Win on iTunes – and DM me a picture of it @rananawas. My producer will randomly pick one lucky winner on Christmas Day, at 12 (noon) Dubai time. Good luck!
Read the Transcript
Rana Nawas: (00:00)
Hello ladies and gents, my guest on today’s show is known as Renaissance woman for using art and culture to build bridges between Africa, the UK and Arabia. Rozan Ahmed is a multipotentialite; someone who has multiple passions and takes pride in working across all of them rather than having a single track. Her vision is to solve world problems through a combination of entrepreneurial, philanthropic and tutorial activity. Rozan is a champion of the arts for social exchange, youth development and mental wellbeing, and believes that local creativity is the currency which will spur Africa’s return to economic growth and continental pride. We discussed Rozan’s diverse experiences such as her most recent project, The Magic Drive, which builds confidence in orphans by conducting fashion shows at their orphanages, how she uses art and culture to disseminate the mandate of the UN and about her creation of Saudi Arabia’s first ever female superhero, Latifa. We talked about the impact of the Gulf war and how becoming a refugee affected her family. Finally, we got some practical tips on how to explore the African continent. I’m delighted to announce When Women Win’s first ever giveaway. You can win an original copy of Latifa, the first Saudi super heroine comic. All you have to do to enter the competition is leave a review for When Women Win on iTunes and DM me a picture of it at Rana Nawas on Instagram. My producer will randomly (note: sounds like prandomly) pick one lucky winner on Christmas Day at 12 noon Dubai time. So let’s get into it.
Rana Nawas: (01:41)
It is such a delight to have you in the room, Rozan. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on When Women Win.
Rozan Ahmed: (01:47)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Rana Nawas: (01:49)
One of your multiple projects, so we say, and I’d like to ask you about, is The Magic Drive.
Rozan Ahmed: (01:55)
Rana Nawas: (01:56)
Your baby? I think you launched it this year. Why? What’s the objective?
Rozan Ahmed: (02:02)
The Magic Drive is a consolidation, I believe, I hope, of my varied passions. I love children. I actually prefer hanging out with children than most adults. So that’s one. Second is obviously fashion and my love for fashion as well as African fashion in particular. And then confidence, empowerment, women as well as men by the way. I’m…you know as much as I’m a feminist, I feel that we should never leave men behind on anything. They should come right along with us and empowering in areas of confidence. Confidence, for me, is the start to everything and sustainability in that confidence. This, The Magic Drive, is an amalgamation of all three. I started it in Kenya because I love Kenya, my favorite country on the planet because…and the reason why I love it… Because a lot of people, all people ask me “why Kenya? Like why not Sudan or why not England?” And the reason I chose Kenya is because Kenya is the one place in the world where everything I love about the world is in one place.
Rana Nawas: (03:19)
Wow. Like what?
Rozan Ahmed: (03:21)
For example, beach; good, beautiful, clean, untouched beach. You can find that in Kenya. If I want to feel like I’m in Europe, in Geneva, I can find that in Kenya. If I want to have a London moment, it’s there. If I want to feel like I’m in the middle of, you know, the planes of Safari Africa, you know this stereotypical Africa if you like, it’s there. Metro policies there. It’s literally everything I love about the world. So we started The Magic Drive in Kenya because of that and also because Kenya needs the magic driver among it’s youth because again, I believe in the power of confidence and the power of sustainable mindsets. By sustainable mindsets, we are now in a world where the word sustainability is pretty much dropping everywhere. But outside of that, there isn’t much focus on what it means to sustain minds and that is The Magic Drive’s focus. It’s genesis is attitude shift. Shifting attitude towards what is possible. Shifting attitude towards a creative potential. Love of self and by love of self, love of environment. And we do that through fashion. I basically organize fashion shows in orphanages.
Rana Nawas: (04:42)
Is that what the magic driving is?
Rozan Ahmed: (04:44)
Yeah. Basically, we organize fashion shows. We focus on collaboration. It’s a collaborative process, so we work with fashion brands around the world who instead of throwing away their clothes, can give them to us and we can make use of them. So it addresses sustainability in fashion. It also addresses sustainable tourism and luxury in Africa and around the world. The Magic Drive is a program and a template that I’ve built to have a very global outlook and it also takes an airbnb approach. And I say that… What I mean by that is that we don’t necessarily…I don’t want to build a school or build another orphanage. I don’t want to do that. I want to take this program into existing set-ups. What we’re doing right now is partnering with orphanages across Kenya and the continent with impoverished schools. And what we’re doing is bringing the program into these spaces and improving what is already existing. And that’s the power of The Magic Drive. You know, it’s very much about the due. Let’s get straight to the due and remove a sense of dependency. The Magic Drive is here to strictly inspire, strictly plant the seed into these kids to have them understand that they’re their own inspiration.
Rana Nawas: (06:02)
Because I was going to say, how does a fashion show help the orphans?
Rozan Ahmed: (06:06)
That’s a very good question. I get asked that all the time. So fashion again…I chose fashion because it is an umbrella to so many skills within creativity. So you have videography, you have choreography, performance, styling and music. You have the actual tactile elements of fashion making these clothes. Within that, what we do is pick on skills and potential. Who is the best performer? Who walks the catwalk the best? Who organizes front row? Stage management? And who organizes that? Well, who is taking the best pictures? Who was steering towards the videographer? Because we come in to the space with experts in this field. So I come in with a photographer, with a videographer, a stylist, a choreographer and a radio personality who can coach in levels of speaking and confidence. And we look at who is gravitating towards who and we discover skill sets that way.
Rana Nawas: (07:10)
So the children run it?
Rozan Ahmed: (07:13)
No, no, we run it, but in collaboration with the kids. So who wants to model? Who wants to video? Who wants to take pictures? Who wants to style? Who wants to organize the clothes and blah blah? The rack, the stage management, who wants to organize that? So that’s how we do it. And what we work towards is self-appreciation and new found confidence. It is a program that brought me to tears when I did it for the first time because within three hours, there was the immediate transformation in fabric, in the power of fabric, how you put something on and you immediately feel better. Have it for us, you know, if we’re going to an event or a gala, we’ll put on an amazing dress. And it’s an immediate transformation. So to witness that amongst these kids and for them to realize very quickly… Not through long programs or you know these dependent-based, very expensive, you know, ideas of development. No. This was immediate. They immediately realized their power and they immediately appreciated themselves more and not just themselves, their space. Because we did photoshoots. For example, in the kitchen of one of the orphanages, one of the kids asked me: “Rozan why? Why are we shooting in the kitchen? It’s so ugly.” I said, “that’s not ugly.” “Yeah, it is. It’s ugly.” And it’s literally where the kids would chop up wood for their meals. Chopa. And so it was, it was messy, but it wasn’t ugly. So we did the shoot there and then I showed her the photo and when she looked at it, she said, “that’s our kitchen?” I said, “that’s your kitchen.” So that is what I’m tapping into; the potential immediacy of transformation through power of fabric.
Rana Nawas: (09:01)
Wow. Could you tell us a bit about yourself?
Rozan Ahmed: (09:04)
I am originally Sudanese. I’m very much Sudanesse actually. Like it’s kind of so ingrained in every part of my being. I grew up in England. I would consider myself an individual that appreciates multipotential, although it took me a while to reach that point. I’m an advocate and I strongly believe in the future of young people, particularly from Africa and Arabia. I love music, I love children, fashion and culture, and also culture that isn’t always appreciated by others. I tend to see beauty where most don’t.
Rana Nawas: (09:47)
You grew up in Kuwait. Can you tell us a little bit about how you left?
Rozan Ahmed: (09:50)
Oh the Gulf war? Oh, okay. Yeah. Well I was in Egypt at the time and my mom was pregnant. She was seven months pregnant. And I was the eldest and we woke up one morning and…I woke up and I could hear my mom crying and she was just staring at the TV with the remote in her hand, like, like flinch, like her hand was flinching, like she almost fainted, like she was just like this and crying and just tears rolling down her eyes and I asked her what was wrong and she said, “Kuwait has been invaded.” Kuwait has been invaded. We can’t go home, we can’t go home.” And I remember she was just shaking and repeating it. She was in total shock and I was 9 or 10 at the time.
Rana Nawas: (10:40)
I was 11 at the time, I remember where I was. We all remember where we were that day.
Rozan Ahmed: (10:42)
Yeah, it was awful.
Rana Nawas: (10:43)
We were living here, so.
Rozan Ahmed: (10:43)
Oh, you were here? Yeah, it was awful. And my dad was in Kuwait. He was supposed to meet us in Egypt. He was supposed to meet us. Actually funny that day he was supposed to fly out to us and they took…my uncle was with him and the soldiers came and took our house hostage. Like they took my dad and my uncle hostage. They took over the house because apparently it was a well located house. Like they set up a radio thing there and they just took them hostage. They didn’t treat them badly but they weren’t allowed to leave. So, we were basically like…we didn’t know what to do.
Rana Nawas: (11:26)
Yeah. Poor mom.
Rozan Ahmed: (11:26)
Yeah. Imagine. Imagine knowing when you’re 9… I didn’t realize how much that affected my mom and how they conducted themselves with such grace to make us not feel the impact. But can you imagine being seven months pregnant? Seven months pregnant woman and you can’t go home, like all your belongings, all your…we lost all our photos too. I only have four pictures of me as a child. My mum and dad lost all their wedding photos. Yeah, it was horrific.
Rana Nawas: (12:00)
It’s funny, we talk about photos a lot. It’s like for me, when we think about history and we don’t even print them anymore.
Rozan Ahmed: (12:05)
Which is tragic.
Rana Nawas: (12:07)
It’s so tragic.
Rozan Ahmed: (12:08)
We don’t print and there’s just so much about the past that I am doing everything I can to hold on to. Everything I can. It took me so long to move from 35 millimeter to a digital camera. It really did. It was so hard because I really enjoyed the process of processing, like we need to take your film to the shop, you know, and you’re waiting for it to come. For me, that was straight joy. Like I love that. And so yeah, it was very difficult. I feel like I’m always guided by a higher power and it always leads to culture and art and design and history and things like that.
Rana Nawas: (12:45)
Well, let’s dive into the art because you are an expert on arts and culture. How did that come about?
Rozan Ahmed: (12:54)
You know, it’s funny. Growing up I always wasn’t sure of what I wanted to do. I was always unsure. You know, I went through a phase where even I wanted to be a rapper for awhile. And then I was writing and then I was doing kind of behind the scenes promotional stuff and I was never really sure what I wanted to do. But I knew from a very, very young age that I loved beautiful things, I loved good music, I loved incredible art and pretty spaces and good food and I would always create ambiance. Even as a child, at home, I would cook for my parents, then design the table and then dress a certain way for them. So all the aesthetics around a beautiful space of understanding, unity, beauty and love. So, I guess my expertise in the field came through honing in on my passions and turning that into business.
Rana Nawas: (13:57)
You have mentioned in the past the power of creativity as a currency. What do you mean by that?
Rozan Ahmed: (14:05)
I’ll use Africa as an example. Africa is where I’m from. Africa is a part of the world that has continuously and consistently suffered from a negative perception and a lowered position in the world. So when I say creativity is currency, it is the burgeoning creative industries in Africa that can work on improving our position and helping our global perception to a more positive angle or direction. And national image directly appeals to foreign direct investment and directly appeals to just the appeal of a country. If we don’t support the creative industries that have the power to make that change in idea, to make that change in position and to make that change in who this country or this continent represents, we’re going to have a problem. So that is essentially what I mean by creativity is currency. We have to understand that creativity, arts, culture, design, fashion, tourism and all of the entities that come out of a creative space are part and parcel of how a country moves forward and progresses. And therefore we have to prioritize creativity and it’s industries as a legitimate power across the continent.
Rana Nawas: (15:32)
And how does this link to humanity?
Rozan Ahmed: (15:34)
Humanity? Well, I’m a humanitarian at heart and I link creativity to humanity because being creative is about owning your imagination. It is about defining and being able to define and translate your imagination in a creative manner and that all relates to heart and emotion and what it means to be human. And in a world that is more and more automated, imagination is all we have left. Humanity is all we have left. So it’s really time for more of us to start honing in on our imagination, on our humanity, on our hearts and on our emotion and apply that to technology to all the concrete physical tools that are out there for us to make human, positive and powerful impact.
Rana Nawas: (16:35)
Yeah. I think that’s right. When it comes to automation, the world is going in that direction and if people want to future proof themselves, you know, look at where the future jobs are going to be, what sets us apart from robots are those two things, right? It’s our humanity, which fundamentally is love for one another which robots wouldn’t have. And creativity and imagination, which hopefully robots won’t.
Rozan Ahmed: (17:00)
Not as well as us, hopefully.
Rana Nawas: (17:00)
Right. So those two things really are our differentiators when it comes to, you know, machines.
Rozan Ahmed: (17:10)
Yeah, very much so. You know, from a very social responsibility level, we need to tap into heart and love more because the world is a little manic right now. And you know, mental health epidemics speak to that mania. It’s time to return to self in a big way.
Rana Nawas: (17:32)
When you say self, what do you mean?
Rozan Ahmed: (17:35)
By self I mean one’s mind, but then I also mean community. I mean immediate realm, immediate vicinity, those who are nearest to you. We don’t always have to look elsewhere, look far away for what is potentially better. We can make better what is surrounding us and build on that.
Rana Nawas: (17:59)
Well, I’d like if we could, Rozan, to go back to Africa. There’s a project you’ve worked on; Africanism. Can you tell us a bit more about Africanism?
Rozan Ahmed: (18:08)
So Africanism is… It acts as a consultancy. I work with a lot of people, individuals, businesses, institutions and research centers that are looking for ways to enter the African market or to understand African developments. And through Africanism, we provide knowledge and also curated experience as to what it is these individuals or these entities want to learn about. So for example, we recently put together a fashion tourism trip where we worked…we put together a group of fashion designers mainly from the Middle East who are interested in what was happening by way of fashion development in Africa. There was an interest in similarities because again, you know, in my speaking I highlight and celebrate the similarities and the differences. And aesthetically, culturally and socially, we have a lot in common. Arabian Africa, yes we have a lot in common by way of symbology, by way of ritual and by way of design. It is also an exploration of global African identity. The isms of our continent are prevalent worldwide. Our influence is prevalent worldwide and these are all ideas and connections and unification that I’m constantly exploring through Africanism to show and prove that Africa’s power isn’t just continental. It’s very much international.
Rana Nawas: (19:43)
I covered Africa for many, many years for the company I work for and I still have a top that I bought in Ouagadougou in 2009.
Rozan Ahmed: (19:53)
Rana Nawas: (19:53)
It is stunning. It has this beautiful shade of green and it’s just such a cool piece of art.
Rozan Ahmed: (20:04)
Rana Nawas: (20:05)
Really. And every time I wear it, people comment on it. I’m a huge fan of African fashion.
Rozan Ahmed: (20:10)
Oh, amazing. No, I love that. Thank you. That’s great. We’re coming. Don’t worry about that. We’re coming. Yeah.
Rana Nawas: (20:17)
We’ll get there. We’ll get there.
Rozan Ahmed: (20:19)
Yeah, we’re coming.
Rana Nawas: (20:19)
You talked a lot about building bridges between Africa and Arabia. What about your British roots? So you lived there for a long time. You obviously have a very English accent and you have very strong connections to the UK. So how does that work between Africa and Britain or Arabian Britain?
Rozan Ahmed: (20:35)
I was born and raised in England, so I’m helplessly British. I started my career in London. Actually, my first kind of cultural disruption, if you like, was in the UK with grime culture, as it’s known as today. When we were there and we were pushing through my first job as Deputy Editor of wired magazine… And I mean I grew up in LA. I’m a London girl so I think helplessly in all my activities and all my engagements and endeavors, there will be a piece of England. And I always go back to London. My family and my friends are there and I do a lot of work, community work there. England is helplessly involved and also England is established globally. Whereas African fashion, which you spoke about and you know, African design and culture and movements within a burgeoning creative space is all returning, it’s all just about coming back. And I use the word returning on purpose because it’s not like Africa’s not familiar with wealth or not familiar with glory or cultural excellence or renaissance. We’re very familiar. The world’s richest man in recorded history is from Mali, you know. And I know a lot of people don’t know that and that’s why Africa is focused because we have a history and we have stories, incredible stories that no one knows about. So it’s my duty to be that evangelist, that voice ans that strategic multitasker in putting these stories together and putting them out to the world.
Rana Nawas: (22:17)
And you really are a multitasker. Let’s talk about that as I think you called – multipotential – as maybe the correct phrase. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Rozan Ahmed: (22:28)
I actually heard the term multipotentialite in a talk somewhere that I went to and I feel like it really spoke to me because within my career, even within my working element, I always used to get a moment of anxiety when people asked me what I did. I never knew what to hone in on or what to say because I couldn’t box myself. And it was because of that that I’ve been named everything from renaissance woman to visionary to writer to strategic advisor to blah blah blah blah blah, editor and all this kind of stuff. And it wasn’t until I heard that term and found pride in multipotential that I applied that in my workspace and also applied that in my understanding of who I was as a human being in my workshops and whoever I interacted with on a daily basis. And I just did recently in Saudi, at the misc forum, I made clear that multipotential isn’t a bad thing. Don’t be scared of your ability to multitask and for your capacity to love and be passionate about many things and that really resonated with a lot of the young people in Saudi. I met one young man who was both a musician and he worked in finance and he came up to me afterwards and he said, “I’ve been griping with the fact that I’m a musician and a finance guy all at once and you’ve literally like…I’ve never seen it in such a clear why not manner.” So that would be my real kind of take home to anybody else because it opened up so much for me and it brought me so much clarity and confidence in moving forward.
Rana Nawas: (24:17)
And I love that. You know, why not? Says who? Who says you should do one thing?
Rozan Ahmed: (24:23)
Exactly! Says who? I felt like I had to answer to interviewers or to people I met at conferences or day-to-day. I felt like I had to answer to that, but I really don’t. If you don’t get it, cool. Carry on. It’s okay.
Rana Nawas: (24:40)
I’d like to dive into your multiple passions and multi-identity nature. You’ve worked on so many different things, so maybe we could just touch on quickly what kind of work have you done at the UN for example.
Rozan Ahmed: (24:57)
So I was the youngest, I was very young. I joined very, very young and I walked in to the UN with all these preconceived ideas of “I’m going to change the world” and blah blah blah and “I’m going to make a difference.” I was so young and fiery and passionate.
Rana Nawas: (25:17)
Rozan Ahmed: (25:17)
I was 23. I shouldn’t have joined at that age. I was basically headhunted or so, I don’t know. It’s jargon. I had reached the point where I felt like I was making famous people more famous and as much as I loved entertainment, I wanted to kind of merge that with social change and difference. So I worked in the UN and I joined as a Public Information Officer. My mandate was to essentially disseminate information on the United Nations mandates and do so in a way that was relative, appealing and considerate of locality. And I did so through some of my best work, to be honest. I had a fantastic boss who gave me all sorts of creative freedoms to just kind of do what I wanted. And it was a difficult time. I’ll be honest, at times it was really…I’d never seen poverty in that way in my own country.
Rana Nawas: (26:17)
So you were working in Sudan?
Rozan Ahmed: (26:19)
Yeah. Well I started off in New York and then I was stationed in Sudan and then across the horn. So I was in Khartoum and then I went to Juba. We set up our sister station there. Then I went to Kenya and Uganda because I also set up a radio station, a UN radio station. So we were sourcing our talent across the horn. It was so stark for me to see poverty at that level, but then also sit in boardrooms with presidents and governors and be amidst obscene wealth. So it was tough at times. There was a lot of guilt, you know, it’s odd. It’s funny how, you know, there’s guilt in not achieving and there’s guilt in achieving. It’s an interesting dynamic, right? So I just…it was tough at times but again, arts, culture, music and fashion saved me. I would constantly dive into these creative, beautiful tools of life, in my opinion, and create campaigns and messages and change through using these tools and my boss, again, was really proud. He was really supportive of implementing entertainment with humanitarianism. You know, implementing entertainment in a space that was so bureaucratic, so archaic. So I used to come up with the wildest ideas and he would just buy them. Like I remember one time it was international peace day. I didn’t want, you know, just a regular international peace day where the UN staff kind of stand up and read about it and then meet kids and shake hands and have some food and you know, it’s just a very boring, let’s be honest, reception. I wanted to have, with this one, physical demonstrations of what the UN does. So I invited a group of agencies to bring their products or to bring their activities into a space. And the space I chose was the Nubian Club in Khartoum because the Nubian Club is covered in Sudanese Nubian, ancient Nubian symbology. So it was a chance, even for the kids, to understand their roots and where they come from and to have a sense of pride in who they were and how the UN can help in who they are. So I begged. I asked them to bring in one of their mine machines where they look on how they find mines underground. They actually bought it. And I flew in an artist from South Sudan and an artist from North Sudan to perform together for the first time on Sudanese soil. So it was music. So we used music to promote unity between the two countries. Unfortunately, they split. So it was very very interactive, very physical demonstrative UN activity. It wasn’t just handshakes. It was a real moment for the UN.
Rana Nawas: (29:22)
Wonderful. And you’ve applied this entertainment angle, if you will, to also creating a female superhero.
Rozan Ahmed: (29:30)
Rana Nawas: (29:30)
So tell us more about Latifa, how she came about?
Rozan Ahmed: (29:33)
Uh, Latifa. Latifa is one of eight female protagonists from a series called Saudi Girls Revolution. And she became the Arab world’s first female super heroine. It was the first time for me to understand the power of super heroine or super heroism. My first Comic-Con, when I went to speak about Latifa and creating the Arab world’s first superhero it… We had young Arab girls coming up to us crying. And my kind of dive into the comic world through Latifa made me realize actually how impactful superheroes are, and from a self belief perspective. You know, these girls, their mothers came up to me and said things like:”we didn’t realize how important it was for these girls to have a super heroine that looked like them and spoke like them. We didn’t even realize.”
Rana Nawas: (30:28)
You’re talking about the power of role models. Right?
Rozan Ahmed: (30:30)
Rana Nawas: (30:31)
Right. we talk about it everyday in the business world. You know, especially for women, what they need to rise… You can’t be what you can’t see and if you’re not seeing those female role models or let’s flip it if you do, how empowering is that? How exciting? How energizing? How galvanizing?
Rozan Ahmed: (30:47)
Rana Nawas: (30:48)
And for listeners who want to become more familiar with Africa, you know, if they’ve never been, obviously it’s a massive continent with over 50 countries, what is a practical tip that you would give them to say, all right, here’s your call to action, this is what you do to get familiar with Africa?
Rozan Ahmed: (31:04)
A good question. I would say if you’re curious about the continent, visit a country like Kenya first. And the reason I say Kenya is because it is a beautiful medium. It is a gentle introduction. Whereas other countries, I’m not saying that they are difficult or anything like that, they’re not… I’ve been to over 30 countries in Africa and I plan on doing all 53 or two. They’re all beautiful in their own way, but I would suggest Kenya as an introduction. Secondly, I would say ensure that you visit and mingle with locals. You have to dive in and swim with what is happening to understand. And that is really the first step to getting to know the continent. Dive in and dive in with openness, with a sincere sense of locality and respect for locality, be collaborative, be understanding and be patient.
Rana Nawas: (32:09)
Great. Thank you so much Rozan. This has been such a pleasure. Where can listeners find you?
Rozan Ahmed: (32:14)
So the best way is probably “I am Rozan” on all my social platforms. It’s, “I am Rozan” on everything. And to be honest, I’m not very active, it’s too much. Maybe Instagram is probably my best way of communicating. And then obviously my website, RozanAhmed.com.
Rana Nawas: (32:32)
Brilliant. Thank you so much. It’s been really, really fun.
Rozan Ahmed: (32:35)
Thanks. It has. Thank you so much. It was great meeting you.
Rana Nawas: (32:39)
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