When Apple invited me to do a live podcast in their Dubai Mall store for International Women’s Day, I immediately thought of bringing Sharene and Morrad on the show. I love that this couple defies numerous stereotypes, and that their values seemed aligned with those of Apple: innovation and execution.
This husband and wife team have together started and sold multiple businesses from the US to Dubai to Malaysia… All while raising 6 children.
Sharene Lee is a Singaporean Chinese who I KNOW is always smiling under her niqab. She had founded and sold 2 businesses in Los Angeles and Paris before her 25th birthday. Morrad Irsane is French Algerian. Having been raised in a family of 13 children, buying and selling second-hand has always been a way of life; so much so that Morrad’s illiterate mother built a thriving business on this trade, and eventually was able to afford a 13-bedroom house in Algeria. Inspired by his mother’s entrepreneurship journey, Morrad modeled their latest business venture on his mother’s – but made it digital. In 2014, Sharene and Morrad cofounded Melltoo, a secondhand e-commerce platform that connects buyers and sellers and focuses on a triple bottom line: people, planet and profit.
We discussed a variety of things: from Morrad’s hand-me-downs to his mother’s entrepreneurial success. I asked about the couple’s coffee shop in a dodgy part of Los Angeles, how they furnished it for free and used the Los Angeles Police Dept as a marketing tool! We talked about exiting businesses at the right price. I asked about their large family and I loved Sharene’s tip that the best tool for a better life is “lower expectations”! Finally, the pair disagreed on entrepreneurship, whether it is a learned skill or something you are born with. What do you think?
If you would like to learn more, please head to the Melltoo website.
This episode was recorded live in the Dubai Mall Apple Store as a Today @ Apple event, so you may hear babies, mobile phones or sound chops from time to time! A huge thank you to Lubna, Rob and the Apple team for hosting us.
Read the Transcript
Rana Nawas: (00:00)
Hi everyone. I’ve always been curious about co-leading. I’ve had mixed experiencing co-leading initiatives in my life. Logically, you need someone with the same values as you and different or complementary skills. It’s not always that easy to find and even when you do, that’s not enough. I think the secret sauce is that they should also have equal commitment or equal capacity for the project. I’ve always enjoyed stories of where this has worked. Then you throw into the mix that the co-leaders are actually also married to each other and now I’m really curious. On Season One, I interviewed Sophie Le Ray, CEO of Naseba. She and her husband started their company 18 years ago.
On today’s show, I’m joined by a husband and wife team who have together started and sold multiple businesses from the US to Dubai to Malaysia, all while raising six children. When Apple invited me to do a live podcast in their Dubai Mall store for International Women’s Day, I immediately thought of bringing Sherene and Morrad on the show. I love that this couple defies numerous stereotypes and that their values seemed aligned with those of Apple; innovation and execution. Sherene Lee is a Singaporean-Chinese who I know is always smiling under her niqab. Sherene spent her life building systems to organize chaos and started her first business at age 13, distributing newsletters to her classmates in school in an effort to centralize school news. She founded and sold two businesses in LA and Paris before her 25th birthday. Morrad Irsane is a French- Algerian and one of the few entrepreneurs in the Arab world known by his mother’s name rather than his father’s. Having been raised in a family of 13 children, buying and selling second hand has always been a way of life, so much so that Morrad ‘s illiterate mother bought a thriving business on this trade and eventually was able to afford a 13 bedroom house in Algeria; a room for each of her children. She also became one of the first angel investors in her village.
Inspired by his mother’s entrepreneurship journey, Morrad modeled their latest business venture on his mother’s business, but made it digital. In 2014 Sherene and Morrad co-founded Melltoo, a second hand e-commerce platform that connects buyers and sellers within a community of trust. It focuses on a triple bottom line, PPP; People, Planet and Profit. So in addition to helping people buy and sell second hand to reduce waste and promote environmental sustainability, Melltoo also helps transform “in kind” donations of electronics to cash for charitable causes. Individuals and businesses can donate their electronics through the program. And Melltoo will sell it with 50% of sale proceeds going to their selected cause. We discussed a variety of things, from Morrad ‘s vintage hand-me-downs to his mother’s entrepreneurial success. I asked about the couple’s coffee shop in a dodgy part of LA, how they furnished it for free, got customers in there and used the LAPD as a marketing tool. We talked about exiting businesses at the right price. I asked about the six children that they have and I love Shareen’s tip that the best tool for a better life is lower expectations. And finally, the pair disagreed on entrepreneurship, whether it’s a learned skill or something you’re born with. What do you think? This episode was recorded live in the Dubai Mall Apple Store as of today at the Apple event. So you may hear babies or mobile phones from time to time. A huge thank you to Lubna, Rob and the Apple Team for hosting us. So let’s get into it.
Apple: (03:53)
Welcome today at Apple and take it away, Rana.
Rana Nawas: (04:01)
Thank you. Thank you Rob. Hello everyone. When women Win was created a year and a half ago when I realized that junior women in the corporate world were not getting access to enough role models, so I created the podcast to, on the one hand, highlight women doing amazing things and on the other hand, give men and women, all over the world, access to their ins. At the end of the first season, When Women Win was number one across the Middle East and it’s now listened to in 144 countries. I’m delighted to have with me today Shareen and Morrad , the co-founders of Melltoo, and we’ll get into that in a little while. But first, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to have you with me today at Apple.
Melltoo: (04:44)
Cool. Thank you for having us Rana. Thank you. Thank you again.
Rana Nawas: (04:48)
We’re going to go deep into your 18 years of serial entrepreneurship. So Morrad and Sherene are husband and wife and they’ve been starting up businesses and selling them for 18 years.
Sherene: (04:59)
18 years is such a long time. You just aged us.
Rana Nawas: (05:01)
This feels like a long time. My kids are four and two. I don’t know how we’re going to get to 18, but anyway. So, before we get into business, let’s go personal. We’re here for International Women’s Day. So Morrad , can you tell us a bit about your mother?
Morrad: (05:20)
Yes. So I come from a family of 13, basically, and I’m the last boy in the family. My mother and father were not poor, but they were just above average, living in France in a very diverse community. So our neighbors were French, Italian, Algerian and Moroccan. So as you can imagine, she was taking care of 13, the boys and girls and she had to find a way to clothe us, you know, so she used to pass on the clothes from my brothers to another brother, until they end up to me. So the crazy thing is that my mother was like, “you look cute. Just dress as I tell you, and go to school. Don’t worry about it.” And I was freaking out that 8 years old, going with a used jacket or something like that, that everybody would stare at me. So I would go to school wearing the jacket, the pens of my brothers, and everybody was staring at me. I was completely freaking out, even more. Then they would come up to me and say “where did you get that jacket?” I’m like, “it’s my brother’s jacket.” “Oh, I want one like that.” So as you can imagine, this was 25 years ago. So I was like fashion before even fashion existed. So vintage was like, I was a heat of the time dressing up with my brothers. So that’s a little bit of how it started. And I used to go back to my mother and say, “what else do you have?” And I see the whole wardrobe of my brothers and sisters and stuff like that. I wouldn’t wear my sister’s stuff but definitely my brother’s. Eventually, my mother started to kind of take the clothes that I was growing out of and she wanted to go back to Algeria, visiting her own family. My father was very supportive of that. It’s like, “yeah, just go now, you know, spend some time with your family.” When you go back to Africa, you don’t go empty handed. So she would go to the village in Algeria and start giving them as gifts for the neighbors. Eventually, they started to become jealous; “next time you come, call me. I will come pick you up at the airport. Don’t give it to her, give it to me.” And they would start fighting over the clothes. Eventually my mother said, “okay, what should I do?” They said, “we’re willing to pay for it. We are willing to give you money,” even though they were very poor people. So, she started to actually sell them. The story goes that people were coming from every single village. So Algeria has 200 kilometres of coastline and knowing that she was bringing clothes from France, the village would come by. She started a small shop basically and as you can imagine, she ran out of clothes for my own brothers and sisters. So when she was going back to France, she stocked to it. The French, the Italians, the neighbours would say “hey, we heard you’re doing great stuff in Algeria. You’re helping people. I have a bag of clothes.” And they were all family actually, it was kind of surprising but all the neighbours had 8, 9 and 10 kids. Spanish friends, Italian and French; they all had big families. It was a popular city. So, they started giving her clothes and she ended up actually building a house of 13 bedrooms in Algeria.
Sherene: (08:39)
One room for each child.
Morrad: (08:39)
Yeah, one room for each child. And what was kind of fun is that she didn’t know how to read and how to write.
Rana Nawas: (08:47)
She was completely illiterate?
Morrad: (08:49)
Yes. Completely illiterate. So it was based on trust. So people used to come take clothes from her and she’d say, “I’ll pay you back later.” But she had everything in her head and she remember what she gave for who. It was like an upper product by itself. That was fantastic because they used to come and even me, I’m like, “can I write at least a phone number?” And she (his mother) would say “no, no, no. I know she owes me that much and her phone number is this.”
Rana Nawas: (09:18)
Wow.
Morrad: (09:18)
And she’s 91 years old today. And she’s still, alhamdillah (Thanks be to God), very fit. And she keeps on going with her shop. She became a little micro-investor, micro-angel investor. She’s helping the neighbors buy chicken or whatever they need. They come needing money, so she would give them money, they would buy chicken, they buy chips, and then after 6-7 months they come back and give her her money. So she’s even making a revenue out of this ecosystem of helping others.
Rana Nawas: (09:46)
She’s an extraordinary woman.
Morrad: (09:46)
Yeah. She’s very amazing. And then, she’s very old, you know, so I go back to her and I tell her about my business and I say, “you know mama…” Because I am doing what she’s doing, technically, I’m helping people resell their stuff online, without them breaking trust back to the marketplace. I put trust in buyers, who put trust on sellers, to deal on my platform.
Rana Nawas: (10:14)
So just a word on your platform, maybe tell everybody what Melltoo does.
Morrad: (10:18)
Yes. So basically, Melltoo is a second-hand peer-to-peer marketplace where anybody can sell stuff. And when something is sold on the platform, we pick it up from your home and deliver it to for you to the other home and the whole transaction takes place in sight. We act as an escrow. So the money is paid to us; when the person accepts the items, we release the money to the things. So when I go to my mother and I show her my phone and I say, “I just digitalized your business. I’m missing people,” she’s like, “it’s cool, but that’s not exactly what I used to do.” And I’m like, “what? What is missing?” So one year later, during Ramadan, me and my wife decided to launch something called The Impactor by Melltoo.
Sharene: So his mother had said, “what I was doing was bigger than this. It wasn’t just buying and selling, right? I was actually doing kheir (good). I was doing something good for the community, for the village.”
Morrad: She said, “okay, I know you’re making money selling products online, somehow I still don’t understand how it works. But where is the good in it? What is the kheir (good, in Arabic)? Then that made me think about what good am I doing? So that’s how we came up with the kheir, by allowing companies or individuals to give us their stuff and we would sell it on our platform and give 50% of the proceeds to feed refugee women…We have a campaign for International Women’s Day, helping Big Heart Foundation. And they have gone through associations. So when I went back to my mom and I told her I’m doing that, she said, “now you’ve got my business model…social impact!”
Rana Nawas: (12:02)
So let’s get into your business history. Just for the benefit of the audience, I’m going to run them through a timeline. So you started your first business in Los Angeles in 2001. Then you sold it in 2005, moved to the UAE and started another business between Paris and the UAE. In 2008, you sold that business and then you hung out in Saudi Arabia from 2010 to 2014 – I have a question mark here, I don’t know what you did. So we can come to that. And then in 2014 you started Melltoo and that’s still going, so that’s five years in. They say the first venture is the hardest one. Was that true for you?
Sherene: (12:46)
I’m not really sure. I think it depends on the type of business. So it was hard in a different way than the one we’re doing now is difficult. So the first one was difficult, but it was also the first time we were working together. So we’ve always been in every business…it was a restaurant with a kitchen…etc. So there was a lot of, you know, frying pans that would fly and you know, knives that would come out when we start arguing. So that was the challenge with that first business; it was really, how do you work with your co-founder? And I think everybody can identify with this. It just so happens to be that we’re married. But even if you weren’t and you had a co-founder, you have to establish that trust and that just doesn’t come naturally. So that was the challenge for me. I don’t know. What about you? What do you think? (directed to Morrad , her husband).
Morrad: (13:33)
Yeah, it was tough for me, to be honest. But we survived the first venture. I understood what she was good at and what I was good at and I just let go of all the things I could not do.
Rana Nawas: (13:47)
And are you good at different things?
Morrad: (13:49)
Oh yes, completely.
Sherene: (13:49)
It’s like polar opposites.
Rana Nawas: (13:51)
Oh really? So what are you good at?
Morrad: (13:54)
Black, white, Ying and Yang. So, I’m good with people, trying to build a team and making them achieve a limitless potential. So I am really good at motivating the team, really bringing spirit into the team and bringing talents, following what I’m doing. And then the PR, fundraising and meeting with other people.
Rana Nawas: (14:19)
Yeah. I’ve seen you hustling, Morrad . You’re a role model for me when it comes to hustle. I see you work a room.
Morrad: (14:26)
But really, to be honest, I know I am one of 13 boys and the girls in my family, so I cannot be but social, you know? So I’m used to meeting with people.
Rana Nawas: (14:40)
What about Sharene ? Where are your strengths?
Sharene: (14:42)
Everything else. He’s very good with all the stuff that is intangible, right? What you cannot touch, what you cannot feel. But that is so necessary for a business to survive. And I’m pretty much the operational person. I’m the one who’s making sure that we’re gonna get through payroll, making sure that there’s a plan for everything and making sure that people are showing up on time. So I’m very much the operational person and he’s the one with the big picture, the big vision and the drive to push the team along.
Rana Nawas: (15:14)
Okay. Well, let’s stick with the first business for a second because it was quite funny. Tell us, tell the audience a little bit about it. Where were you and why did you create that restaurant?
Morrad: (15:26)
It was kind of funny because, you know, when you are in the US and you get out of college, you’re usually broke, you don’t have money. And it was very difficult to start our first venture. So what was interesting was that we found a small kitchen and…
Sharene: (15:38)
Oh wait, this is my story!
Morrad: (15:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Sharene: (15:44)
I was on a field trip, college field trip. It was an urban planning class, so we went to visit different concepts of urban planning. So we ended up in this old garment factory and they converted it into a food court/offices upstairs. The whole idea was that the food court would be run by recent immigrants. So they made it easy for you to get a business, you didn’t have to pay for the equipment…etc. So that’s how we got our first foot in the door.
Morrad: (16:14)
With that kind of kitchen, I was basically in the hood, in South East LA. I don’t know if anybody’s familiar with it, but it’s very dangerous. One block away was the West Side. So everything is fine and it looks like Dubai, you know. But the thing that was interesting is that my connections were all from the West Side because I knew some French chefs, I knew some Italian chefs and all these kinds of guys. So in my kitchen, I started doing very gourmet meals and then I would try to sell it to the West Side; the nice neighborhoods, you know. Eventually, the business was doing very well because we were cooking from one head to another. We were cooking for very important people in the movie industry. And we were invited to homes to cook and stuff like that.
Rana Nawas: (17:06)
Okay, so who was cooking? You were cooking?
Morrad: (17:10)
I was cooking but all my friends were French…and I was cooking as well because I was learning from the best Chefs in town. See, we all like to come and taste food and stuff, so it was an open kitchen. Eventually, I moved to also opening a coffee shop. And that’s the other funny story is that we opened it one block away, still in a very scary neighborhood. There were empty spots that nobody wanted to take the risk of opening a coffee shop there. And that was at a time when Starbucks was was taking every single corner, but this corner was empty, even Starbucks did not want to take it. So, it’s kind of funny. So, there was one Starbucks, actually, in a nice neighborhood, like one block away in a nice neighborhood, but not in this bad neighborhood. The only guy who took a bet was Magic Johnson, who wanted to open Starbucks in an inner city, I don’t know if you recall, but that never happened. So, I said, “I’m going to take this Coffee Shop and build it in the inner city and I will bring the people from the West into my coffee shop.” So when I pitched this to the landlord, she looked at me said, “okay, you’re crazy, but that’s fine and I like you so much that I’m going to give you 12 months of free rent!”
Rana Nawas: (18:25)
Free rent?
Morrad: (18:25)
Yeah, free rent.
Rana Nawas: (18:27)
Why?
Sharene: (18:28)
Well, it was a property value, right? It was in her neighborhood, so she wanted to have some stores that would bring better traffic and increase the property.
Morrad: (18:42)
She wanted me to bring students from USC, which is one of the richest universities…
Rana Nawas: (18:52)
University of Southern California?
Sharene: (18:54)
Yeah.
Rana Nawas: (18:54)
Okay.
Morrad: (18:54)
…and bring them to the neighborhoods, which would increase their property value. That’s what I pitched to her, you know. And she’s like “okay,” and she told me, that there’s a freeway here that no one is going to cross. So I said, “okay, let’s try.” Eventually she agreed. So I got 12 months. I built the place. It was so beautiful and nice – all refurbished and we ran out of money.
Sharene: (19:18)
You know, speaking about this building, the restaurant, it was originally an office space. So we needed to put in a kitchen and all of that. So in the US, you have to get permits and licenses, right? So you have to go to the building department and they have this thing called “Plan Check.” So they’ll check your plans and of course, we didn’t have money for an architect, so I had to go to Kinko’s, which is a photocopy place, and I would somehow draw it and photocopy it, so that it’s huge and it looks like a blueprint. And every time I go, they say, “no, no.” And I keep going. And they keep saying, “no, change this, change that, change this, change that.” Until one day I was ready to give up, really. And so I was just with the guy and his boss walks by, looks at me and I was wearing a hijab at the time, he was like, “oh, alsalamu a’alaykom (peace be with you – a Muslim greeting) sister, how are you?” I’m like, “I’m fine, thanks.” And so what’s happening? What are you doing? And he says, “oh yeah, I know she has this issue here, but you know, she can’t do this because the bathroom was in the wrong place.” And he’s like, “yallah (go ahead), no problem. Go approve it. It’s a minor issue.” So it was, it was fortuitous. That could have taken months and by the time we wouldn’t have…
Morrad: (20:35)
That was even worse because we were in historical LA; all buildings had to comply with historical backgrounds. So even moving a brick was a big deal.
Sharene: (20:51)
He literally felt sorry for me, I think because he’d been there…how many times already? Countless and I have no idea. It was every day. Every day we would go back just to get the place built.
Rana Nawas: (21:01)
And okay. So then back to the coffee shop, what happened?
Morrad: (21:05)
Yes. So, she was saying we almost died out of our cash, to open the place. So we had a beautiful coffee shop with a wooden floor that I kept because it was all original. And brick wall, a very beautiful brick wall that I kept as well. So she’s like, “okay, you know what? You have like $1,000 left for furniture.” And we needed to open the next day, otherwise we would just close. At the time, her father would always tell me to buy a pickup. So actually, I listened to his advice, but I don’t surf and I don’t do anything, I never use it. So I’m like, “okay, finally I find a use for my pickup truck.” I took one of my friends and I told him that we need to go to West LA, into those neighborhoods and we need to roam the whole night to actually find furniture.
Sharene: (22:10)
Trash can surfing.
Rana Nawas: (22:12)
Wait, so you had $1,000 to furnish the entire coffee shop overnight?
Morrad: (22:15)
Yes. Overnight. The next night. So what I took the pickup truck and I went with a friend of mine and we went to some neighborhoods, good neighborhoods, and I was finding some furniture… Tables, chairs, furniture that the Americans, in general, would put outside and you can just take it. So we started roaming, we found chairs, we went to some restaurants and hotels. We found a very nice marble table. So we went and started collecting the stuff.
Rana Nawas: (22:47)
So you did garbage collection overnight?
Morrad: (22:49)
It was all old furniture.
Sharene: (22:50)
You see, trash has always been in our lives.
Morrad: (22:53)
It was some kind of buying second hand and so I was recycling all this furniture. I even, at one point, was working with my friend and saw a very nice sofa and the sofa was like our icon into our shop. So I’m looking at the sofa and then far away, there was a homeless guy coming and he jumped to sit on the sofa. It was my first time fighting with a guy and I said “let go, man. That’s mine.” So that was kind of my toughest time with the game. So I said to the man “listen, I give you 10 bucks and you let it go.” So I give him some money. Boom. He liked it. So we took it and put in the truck. I even had Starbucks chairs that I found as well. They had been dumped, so I had to remove…anyways, so I brought all these things and then the next morning, we had the whole setup. It was full of furniture and I had a friend who was painting them a little bit, making some designs, you know, and they all looked unique.
Sharene: (23:55)
Yeah. Because nothing looked the same.
Morrad: (23:56)
Nothing looked the same.
Rana Nawas: (23:58)
And did people come?
Morrad: (24:00)
No, we opened at 6 o’clock in the morning and there was no body until 8-9 o’clock, not even a single coffee sold.
Sharene: (24:07)
No, no. The first day we did get one table.
Morrad: (24:10)
Yeah, they wanted to watch the Lakers game. I wasn’t going to take that anymore, so the next day I went to Starbucks. At nine, they were closing at 9 o’clock. So I went to Starbucks with some coupons of my coffee shop and I stopped at every single table and said that Starbucks was closing at 9 o’clock and I’ll be opened till 12. I gave them free coffee, “the regular Joe” for free and free internet. I even had the first Apple product, the iMac and it was the first coffee shop with an iMac and wifi. And so I said to them “you can have free internet, electrical free and free coffee.” So all those kids said “what’s the location?” So I said, “just follow me.” So I start bringing them and my wife was there, the barista was there and I was bringing people. I filled up the whole restaurant. The second night, it was packed with students…
Rana Nawas: (25:12)
From 9pm onwards, it was packed?
Morrad: (25:15)
Yeah. And by the way, they came with this coupon of regular coffee, which I knew they will not drink regular coffee, they all drink latte. So actually they said, “no, I don’t want this regular coffee.” So we gave them what they wanted and we made money on the go, right away. And then the next day, a friend of mine was working for LAPD, he was a cop. I said, “listen, I need you to come. I will give you free coffee. But the only thing I need from you is to let your car, with the lights on…”
Rana Nawas: (25:44)
With the siren?
Morrad: (25:44)
“With the siren, and when people come, they can see it.” He said, “okay, that’s all you need?” I said, “yeah. Just come and I’ll give you a double espresso, the one you like, for free.” So he said “okay!”
Sharene: (25:59)
So, there were two cop cars parked in front…
Rana Nawas: (25:59)
…with the siren on…
Sharene: (25:59)
…in front of the coffee shop.
Morrad: (26:05)
So what I did was basically I bought a lineup. I said bring all your team. They will all get coffee. So they brought like six cars, six police, LAPD and my coffee shop, where there were no signs or any of these things and the kids were passing by and looking at what’s going on. Oh, there is a coffee shop there and that’s it. So they were all happy.
Rana Nawas: (26:26)
That’s insane.
Morrad: (26:27)
Yeah. So the owner of the property was actually very happy with what we’ve done and we kind of moved the barrier of inequality, I would say. Inequality where people were willing to come to the hood to see what was happening. And alhamdillah (Thanks be to God, in Arabic) it happened in less than 12 months. So, there is no barrier, actually. When people are saying that there is a barrier and stuff like, if you really want to make it happen…
Sharene: (26:50)
You know, you really have to hack it. So, I was just back in LA last year and the coffee shop was still there.
Rana Nawas: (26:56)
Well, okay. So, why did you sell it?
Sharene: (26:58)
It was getting a little hard. It was very tiring and it was very long hours. So we’d be there from 6 until 2 in the morning, sometimes.
Rana Nawas: (27:08)
Wow.
Sharene: (27:09)
And it was getting a little bit crazy. We wanted to do something different. And also at the time, we had our first child and I was like, “I want to take care of him.” So, many reasons.
Morrad: (27:22)
It was also an opportunity. Actually, what happened was that we spent $70,000 on the venture and somebody came and said “I’ll give you half a million dollars,” after 12 months.
Rana Nawas: (27:32)
Wow.
Morrad: (27:33)
So I am saying, mixing all this coffee for the next 20 years? No. So I’m like, okay, why not sell it? So it was an opportunity for us to move and I like to build things and move on. You know, I get bored there. I know that I arrive at a point where I build it, it is happening, then I like…
Sharene: (27:55)
Sell and move on.
Rana Nawas: (27:56)
How do you know what the right price is? I mean, you get an offer and you’re like “anything over the $70,000 is a good deal? So $500,000 will cut it?” Any other logic?
Morrad: (28:08)
Actually, I was cheated because I got half a million dollars and six months later, he sold it for $1 million.
Rana Nawas: (28:15)
Oh Wow!
Sharene: (28:16)
Actually, the right price is whatever people are willing to pay, what the market is willing to pay, that’s generally the right price.
Rana Nawas: (28:26)
Okay. So, you moved on and what happened next?
Sharene: (28:30)
So we moved here. We were on a world tour for a little bit, we had a little bit of cash. So, we went to visit his family in France, Amsterdam, Belgium, all these places. Then we went to visit my family in Southeast Asia, so Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia. And then we came here, to the Middle East, to check it out and see what’s new because he had a bunch of friends from here through the University. So then we were like, “okay, where do we want to live now?” And honestly, when we came here, we saw it as the land of opportunity. You know, this was 2005, Sheikh Zayed Road had 10 buildings. Nothing was done. None of this was here yet. So we were like, wow, this is a place where we can come, make something and build something up again.
Rana Nawas: (29:17)
By this point, how many children did you have?
Morrad: (29:20)
Oh three.
Sharene: (29:21)
I don’t know.
Morrad: (29:21)
We had three.
Rana Nawas: (29:22)
Okay. So for everyone’s benefit, Sharene and Morrad have six children and they build business, sell business, build business, sell business and somehow six children came along.
Sharene: (29:32)
Three children by that time.
Rana Nawas: (29:34)
All right. Let’s come back to six children. How on earth do you manage? I mean, you’re equal business partners. You both work. So how do you manage with the care, the education? Let’s start with the care.
Sharene: (29:49)
So I’m going to say this and it’s not going to sound good, but I’m going to say it: Lowered expectations. Lower your expectations and everything works out well. Seriously. It’s not easy and it’s very chaotic and we cannot do a lot of things that, you know, I would like to do for my kids, but we do the best that we can. So my philosophy on this is you have to outsource everything that doesn’t require you to do. So for example, if somebody else can cook, let that somebody else cook or if you have to, eat out. If somebody else can clean, let that somebody else clean. I only want to do the things, for my children, that nobody else but the mother can do. And usually that’s affection, that’s education, that’s spending time with them. So this is my philosophy. I’m like, okay, just focus on those tasks, that only the mother can do. Everything else, just outsource it.
Rana Nawas: (30:49)
So let’s talk about education. How do you educate six children while the two of you are working?
Morrad: (30:57)
We tried different things, you know. We tried putting them in school, which was great, but you know, they just socialized and do some things. But I’m the wrong dad because I don’t believe in the educational system as it is. I think it’s broken. I was one of those victims. I was a failure of the educational system. It took me 25 years to get my degree. So, I don’t believe in it. You know, instead of nurturing the kids, they try to put them in a box. But the ball doesn’t fit in the box here and that’s what I’m seeing when I look at the educational system today. So I was like petrified when I dropped my kids, I said “please don’t give me A’s. Please don’t give me A’s.” And they asked why and I said, “because an A student works for a B student” you know. That’s the first thing I’ve learned. So it’s fairly difficult and I know I’m going to be very controversial, some of the parents ask, “are you crazy? What are you doing for your kids?” And blah, blah, blah. That’s a little bit of my controversy. So at one point, I actually decided to home school. I’m in the start-up scene, I am a start-up founder. I think it was last year, there was a competition for kids with the top schools in Dubai, GEMS School, you name it. My kids are home schooled. I took them and they won the competition.
Sharene: (32:25)
It was an entrepreneurial pitch.
Morrad: (32:25)
Yeah and they were all fantastic kids. Amazing stories, amazing businesses. I was like, wow, “I want to invest in those companies.” They were all very good kids. And guess what? They surprised me because Abdullah, Miriam, Ahmad and AbdelRahman were the first and they took the first prize.
Rana Nawas: (32:44)
So they won the pitch. What business did they pitch?
Morrad: (32:46)
It was a game book. Of course, they wanted to surf on my marketplace and they said “Dad we want to take your customers, get them to give us books, DVDs and games” and that they would sell them online, with a subscription, so kids can go online and can buy or subscribe to a book every month. You get six books sent to your home. They came up with the whole project themselves. I said “kids don’t have money. How are you going to make money?” They said, “no, we are targeting the mother.” So, they had it all figured out. So, it’s interesting.
Rana Nawas: (33:25)
So, home schooling is working for you guys?
Sharene & Morrad: (33:27)
Yeah.
Sharene: (33:27)
I mean, we are very unconventional in that sense.
Morrad: (33:31)
We used to clash on that because she’s more into the thinking, you know, Singapore Model, best school, you go work hard…
Sharene: (33:39)
And everyone is like “don’t copy my work.’
Morrad: (33:46)
So, where she’s coming from is also different. She wants a proper education, things have to be done that way. But eventually we compromised. I’m happy the way things are going and she’s also happy.
Rana Nawas: (34:02)
So let’s take it back to business. Would you recommend starting your own business? Is it for everyone?
Sharene: (34:11)
Oh, I don’t think so. I think you’re either born an entrepreneur or you’re not because it takes a certain amount of craziness to do what we do. You have to be a little bit off. You cannot be too rational. Otherwise, everything will tell you “no.” If you try to do the something with a pro and con list, before starting a business, you’ll always end up with, “no, I shouldn’t start a business.” You have to be a little bit crazy and believe in the impossible, then you can last. Otherwise, you’re going to give up halfway.
Rana Nawas: (34:43)
So, you think people are born entrepreneurs or not?
Sharene: (34:46)
Yeah, this is how I feel about it.
Rana Nawas: (34:49)
Morrad , what do you think?
Morrad: (34:50)
Well first of all, I’m not hireable. You know, the way I look, I cannot get a job.
Rana Nawas: (34:58)
Completely unemployable.
Morrad: (34:58)
So you know, I cannot find a job.
Sharene: (35:03)
He’s been fired from every job he’s had. FYI.
Morrad: (35:03)
Yes, I did. I get fired very often. I cannot last because I would just speak my mind and I would say to my manager “you’re wrong.” And he’s like, “okay, you’re fired.” I say, “I agree. I’m fired.” So I used to get fired a lot when I was back in the US and in France. But again, I don’t believe that you’re born an entrepreneur. I have to disagree with my wife, which I often do. I think that it’s a skill that you can learn, actually. It is all about opportunities. You’re doing something on a day-to-day basis in your job, your work and you realize that, wow, there is something that can be done better. I know that because I’m at in that position. I’m doing it now and I think, “what do I do now? Do I quit the job? Do I take a bet on that?” And that’s when the “aha” moment comes, you know? Because what’s happening is that the opportunity really comes at the moment where nobody else knows, but only you know, because you’re doing it right now. Then after that, it becomes a matter of “should I quit? And “how do I get people to be involved and willing to take me seriously into that journey?” And you know what? Back then when I was in the US, I was taking a course, a business course, and two things really struck me. The first thing; I was taking that course with a successful businessman. Yes, he came in, it was Business 101, and he said “we should not teach business 101. We should teach failure 101.” And that was back then, 25 years ago! It was back then 25 years ago. I said “why?” He said, “1000 times and I succeeded only one time. And that’s my business today.” He said, “take the book and dump it in a trashcan. I don’t want you to follow these textbooks.” That was the first question mark. The second thing that was interesting; an African American lady came in and she was teaching Business Communication and she brought this book called “A Pay Check Away from Poverty.” That was it. So we are all a pay check away from poverty, if we choose to work for someone. And that was it. So if you guys want to be a pay check away from poverty and don’t try to understand that there is another world waiting for you, just take the bet and surround yourself with smart people to make it happen. But everybody, I believe, can be an entrepreneur.
Rana Nawas: (37:39)
We’ve talked about the role of women in business and family. Do you think it’s possible to make money and do good at the same time?
Sharene: (37:50)
I do not only think it’s possible but I think it’s necessary. And I think that this is how all businesses should be, from this day forth or since yesterday. Because if you can do both, then you’ll do more of it. If you can make money while doing good, then you’re going to try to make more money and end up doing more good. So if we all have this in your mindset, we built businesses that have social good, I mean, profitable businesses that have social goals, we’re going to keep pushing that social good because we’re making money at the same time. The problem with charities and I’m not saying it’s a problem, but why do people get burnt out when they work for charities? Because they don’t make money and eventually they need to move on. They need to have lives. They need to earn a pay check. So they end up abandoning the charity and going on to work in the private sector. But if you build a business where you are both doing good and making money, you’ll just keep going forever.
Morrad: (38:50)
Yeah. And actually look, people are very savvy now. In one minute, I can know exactly what a company does at any given time. I can tell you where Apple product is built, for example, I can just back flash right away. So the news is going around really fast. The consumer, my kids now, they don’t consume the way I consume. So, they say what is this company doing good, for me to be a part of that. So you have all these kinds of demands. You know, I don’t want to own anything anymore. I don’t want to own a car. I don’t want to own a home. I don’t want to own any clothes, a phone maybe. So you have this kind of consciousnesses among the young generation who really want to be impactors and really have a social impact. So I believe, in any business that you start, if you don’t have a social impact component within your business, integrated from day one, you are in trouble because anybody will come with a social impact and do the same thing, I will go for the social impact business.
Rana Nawas: (40:02)
Thank you. It’s an expectation, now, of the consumer.
Morrad: (40:05)
Definitely.
Rana Nawas: (40:06)
Thank you so much Sharene and Morrad. For people who want to follow you or find out more about Melltoo, where do they go?
Morrad: (40:12)
They go to Sharene. Actually, Sharene is the one who’s running the whole thing, I am just talking. But I’m impressed by the way my wife works. She manages a team of 25 and not only that, but she is also a very good example to my children and my daughters, my two daughters and my mom.
Sharene: (40:30)
You’re going to make me cry. Stop.
Morrad: (40:30)
So you know. They always say there’s always a woman behind every man. In that case, I can testify that there’s a man behind the woman.
Rana Nawas: (40:42)
Yes. Great. Well thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you.
Rana Nawas: (40:48)
I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. I’d love to hear from you, so please head over to whenwomenwinpodcast.com to get feedback. While you’re there, you can find all episodes and show notes and sign up for our monthly newsletter. Wherever you’re listening right now, do remember to hit the subscribe button to be notified of future episodes, and please write a review when you can, to let others know what to expect. Thanks, and have a great day!Rana Nawas: (00:00)
Hi everyone. I’ve always been curious about co-leading. I’ve had mixed experiencing co-leading initiatives in my life. Logically, you need someone with the same values as you and different or complementary skills. It’s not always that easy to find and even when you do, that’s not enough. I think the secret sauce is that they should also have equal commitment or equal capacity for the project. I’ve always enjoyed stories of where this has worked. Then you throw into the mix that the co-leaders are actually also married to each other and now I’m really curious. On Season One, I interviewed Sophie Le Ray, CEO of Naseba. She and her husband started their company 18 years ago.
On today’s show, I’m joined by a husband and wife team who have together started and sold multiple businesses from the US to Dubai to Malaysia, all while raising six children. When Apple invited me to do a live podcast in their Dubai Mall store for International Women’s Day, I immediately thought of bringing Sherene and Morrad on the show. I love that this couple defies numerous stereotypes and that their values seemed aligned with those of Apple; innovation and execution. Sherene Lee is a Singaporean-Chinese who I know is always smiling under her niqab. Sherene spent her life building systems to organize chaos and started her first business at age 13, distributing newsletters to her classmates in school in an effort to centralize school news. She founded and sold two businesses in LA and Paris before her 25th birthday. Morrad Irsane is a French- Algerian and one of the few entrepreneurs in the Arab world known by his mother’s name rather than his father’s. Having been raised in a family of 13 children, buying and selling second hand has always been a way of life, so much so that Morrad ‘s illiterate mother bought a thriving business on this trade and eventually was able to afford a 13 bedroom house in Algeria; a room for each of her children. She also became one of the first angel investors in her village.
Inspired by his mother’s entrepreneurship journey, Morrad modeled their latest business venture on his mother’s business, but made it digital. In 2014 Sherene and Morrad co-founded Melltoo, a second hand e-commerce platform that connects buyers and sellers within a community of trust. It focuses on a triple bottom line, PPP; People, Planet and Profit. So in addition to helping people buy and sell second hand to reduce waste and promote environmental sustainability, Melltoo also helps transform “in kind” donations of electronics to cash for charitable causes. Individuals and businesses can donate their electronics through the program. And Melltoo will sell it with 50% of sale proceeds going to their selected cause. We discussed a variety of things, from Morrad ‘s vintage hand-me-downs to his mother’s entrepreneurial success. I asked about the couple’s coffee shop in a dodgy part of LA, how they furnished it for free, got customers in there and used the LAPD as a marketing tool. We talked about exiting businesses at the right price. I asked about the six children that they have and I love Shareen’s tip that the best tool for a better life is lower expectations. And finally, the pair disagreed on entrepreneurship, whether it’s a learned skill or something you’re born with. What do you think? This episode was recorded live in the Dubai Mall Apple Store as of today at the Apple event. So you may hear babies or mobile phones from time to time. A huge thank you to Lubna, Rob and the Apple Team for hosting us. So let’s get into it.
Apple: (03:53)
Welcome today at Apple and take it away, Rana.
Rana Nawas: (04:01)
Thank you. Thank you Rob. Hello everyone. When women Win was created a year and a half ago when I realized that junior women in the corporate world were not getting access to enough role models, so I created the podcast to, on the one hand, highlight women doing amazing things and on the other hand, give men and women, all over the world, access to their ins. At the end of the first season, When Women Win was number one across the Middle East and it’s now listened to in 144 countries. I’m delighted to have with me today Shareen and Morrad , the co-founders of Melltoo, and we’ll get into that in a little while. But first, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to have you with me today at Apple.
Melltoo: (04:44)
Cool. Thank you for having us Rana. Thank you. Thank you again.
Rana Nawas: (04:48)
We’re going to go deep into your 18 years of serial entrepreneurship. So Morrad and Sherene are husband and wife and they’ve been starting up businesses and selling them for 18 years.
Sherene: (04:59)
18 years is such a long time. You just aged us.
Rana Nawas: (05:01)
This feels like a long time. My kids are four and two. I don’t know how we’re going to get to 18, but anyway. So, before we get into business, let’s go personal. We’re here for International Women’s Day. So Morrad , can you tell us a bit about your mother?
Morrad: (05:20)
Yes. So I come from a family of 13, basically, and I’m the last boy in the family. My mother and father were not poor, but they were just above average, living in France in a very diverse community. So our neighbors were French, Italian, Algerian and Moroccan. So as you can imagine, she was taking care of 13, the boys and girls and she had to find a way to clothe us, you know, so she used to pass on the clothes from my brothers to another brother, until they end up to me. So the crazy thing is that my mother was like, “you look cute. Just dress as I tell you, and go to school. Don’t worry about it.” And I was freaking out that 8 years old, going with a used jacket or something like that, that everybody would stare at me. So I would go to school wearing the jacket, the pens of my brothers, and everybody was staring at me. I was completely freaking out, even more. Then they would come up to me and say “where did you get that jacket?” I’m like, “it’s my brother’s jacket.” “Oh, I want one like that.” So as you can imagine, this was 25 years ago. So I was like fashion before even fashion existed. So vintage was like, I was a heat of the time dressing up with my brothers. So that’s a little bit of how it started. And I used to go back to my mother and say, “what else do you have?” And I see the whole wardrobe of my brothers and sisters and stuff like that. I wouldn’t wear my sister’s stuff but definitely my brother’s. Eventually, my mother started to kind of take the clothes that I was growing out of and she wanted to go back to Algeria, visiting her own family. My father was very supportive of that. It’s like, “yeah, just go now, you know, spend some time with your family.” When you go back to Africa, you don’t go empty handed. So she would go to the village in Algeria and start giving them as gifts for the neighbors. Eventually, they started to become jealous; “next time you come, call me. I will come pick you up at the airport. Don’t give it to her, give it to me.” And they would start fighting over the clothes. Eventually my mother said, “okay, what should I do?” They said, “we’re willing to pay for it. We are willing to give you money,” even though they were very poor people. So, she started to actually sell them. The story goes that people were coming from every single village. So Algeria has 200 kilometres of coastline and knowing that she was bringing clothes from France, the village would come by. She started a small shop basically and as you can imagine, she ran out of clothes for my own brothers and sisters. So when she was going back to France, she stocked to it. The French, the Italians, the neighbours would say “hey, we heard you’re doing great stuff in Algeria. You’re helping people. I have a bag of clothes.” And they were all family actually, it was kind of surprising but all the neighbours had 8, 9 and 10 kids. Spanish friends, Italian and French; they all had big families. It was a popular city. So, they started giving her clothes and she ended up actually building a house of 13 bedrooms in Algeria.
Sherene: (08:39)
One room for each child.
Morrad: (08:39)
Yeah, one room for each child. And what was kind of fun is that she didn’t know how to read and how to write.
Rana Nawas: (08:47)
She was completely illiterate?
Morrad: (08:49)
Yes. Completely illiterate. So it was based on trust. So people used to come take clothes from her and she’d say, “I’ll pay you back later.” But she had everything in her head and she remember what she gave for who. It was like an upper product by itself. That was fantastic because they used to come and even me, I’m like, “can I write at least a phone number?” And she (his mother) would say “no, no, no. I know she owes me that much and her phone number is this.”
Rana Nawas: (09:18)
Wow.
Morrad: (09:18)
And she’s 91 years old today. And she’s still, alhamdillah (Thanks be to God), very fit. And she keeps on going with her shop. She became a little micro-investor, micro-angel investor. She’s helping the neighbors buy chicken or whatever they need. They come needing money, so she would give them money, they would buy chicken, they buy chips, and then after 6-7 months they come back and give her her money. So she’s even making a revenue out of this ecosystem of helping others.
Rana Nawas: (09:46)
She’s an extraordinary woman.
Morrad: (09:46)
Yeah. She’s very amazing. And then, she’s very old, you know, so I go back to her and I tell her about my business and I say, “you know mama…” Because I am doing what she’s doing, technically, I’m helping people resell their stuff online, without them breaking trust back to the marketplace. I put trust in buyers, who put trust on sellers, to deal on my platform.
Rana Nawas: (10:14)
So just a word on your platform, maybe tell everybody what Melltoo does.
Morrad: (10:18)
Yes. So basically, Melltoo is a second-hand peer-to-peer marketplace where anybody can sell stuff. And when something is sold on the platform, we pick it up from your home and deliver it to for you to the other home and the whole transaction takes place in sight. We act as an escrow. So the money is paid to us; when the person accepts the items, we release the money to the things. So when I go to my mother and I show her my phone and I say, “I just digitalized your business. I’m missing people,” she’s like, “it’s cool, but that’s not exactly what I used to do.” And I’m like, “what? What is missing?” So one year later, during Ramadan, me and my wife decided to launch something called The Impactor by Melltoo.
Sharene: So his mother had said, “what I was doing was bigger than this. It wasn’t just buying and selling, right? I was actually doing kheir (good). I was doing something good for the community, for the village.”
Morrad: She said, “okay, I know you’re making money selling products online, somehow I still don’t understand how it works. But where is the good in it? What is the kheir (good, in Arabic)? Then that made me think about what good am I doing? So that’s how we came up with the kheir, by allowing companies or individuals to give us their stuff and we would sell it on our platform and give 50% of the proceeds to feed refugee women…We have a campaign for International Women’s Day, helping Big Heart Foundation. And they have gone through associations. So when I went back to my mom and I told her I’m doing that, she said, “now you’ve got my business model…social impact!”
Rana Nawas: (12:02)
So let’s get into your business history. Just for the benefit of the audience, I’m going to run them through a timeline. So you started your first business in Los Angeles in 2001. Then you sold it in 2005, moved to the UAE and started another business between Paris and the UAE. In 2008, you sold that business and then you hung out in Saudi Arabia from 2010 to 2014 – I have a question mark here, I don’t know what you did. So we can come to that. And then in 2014 you started Melltoo and that’s still going, so that’s five years in. They say the first venture is the hardest one. Was that true for you?
Sherene: (12:46)
I’m not really sure. I think it depends on the type of business. So it was hard in a different way than the one we’re doing now is difficult. So the first one was difficult, but it was also the first time we were working together. So we’ve always been in every business…it was a restaurant with a kitchen…etc. So there was a lot of, you know, frying pans that would fly and you know, knives that would come out when we start arguing. So that was the challenge with that first business; it was really, how do you work with your co-founder? And I think everybody can identify with this. It just so happens to be that we’re married. But even if you weren’t and you had a co-founder, you have to establish that trust and that just doesn’t come naturally. So that was the challenge for me. I don’t know. What about you? What do you think? (directed to Morrad , her husband).
Morrad: (13:33)
Yeah, it was tough for me, to be honest. But we survived the first venture. I understood what she was good at and what I was good at and I just let go of all the things I could not do.
Rana Nawas: (13:47)
And are you good at different things?
Morrad: (13:49)
Oh yes, completely.
Sherene: (13:49)
It’s like polar opposites.
Rana Nawas: (13:51)
Oh really? So what are you good at?
Morrad: (13:54)
Black, white, Ying and Yang. So, I’m good with people, trying to build a team and making them achieve a limitless potential. So I am really good at motivating the team, really bringing spirit into the team and bringing talents, following what I’m doing. And then the PR, fundraising and meeting with other people.
Rana Nawas: (14:19)
Yeah. I’ve seen you hustling, Morrad . You’re a role model for me when it comes to hustle. I see you work a room.
Morrad: (14:26)
But really, to be honest, I know I am one of 13 boys and the girls in my family, so I cannot be but social, you know? So I’m used to meeting with people.
Rana Nawas: (14:40)
What about Sharene ? Where are your strengths?
Sharene: (14:42)
Everything else. He’s very good with all the stuff that is intangible, right? What you cannot touch, what you cannot feel. But that is so necessary for a business to survive. And I’m pretty much the operational person. I’m the one who’s making sure that we’re gonna get through payroll, making sure that there’s a plan for everything and making sure that people are showing up on time. So I’m very much the operational person and he’s the one with the big picture, the big vision and the drive to push the team along.
Rana Nawas: (15:14)
Okay. Well, let’s stick with the first business for a second because it was quite funny. Tell us, tell the audience a little bit about it. Where were you and why did you create that restaurant?
Morrad: (15:26)
It was kind of funny because, you know, when you are in the US and you get out of college, you’re usually broke, you don’t have money. And it was very difficult to start our first venture. So what was interesting was that we found a small kitchen and…
Sharene: (15:38)
Oh wait, this is my story!
Morrad: (15:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Sharene: (15:44)
I was on a field trip, college field trip. It was an urban planning class, so we went to visit different concepts of urban planning. So we ended up in this old garment factory and they converted it into a food court/offices upstairs. The whole idea was that the food court would be run by recent immigrants. So they made it easy for you to get a business, you didn’t have to pay for the equipment…etc. So that’s how we got our first foot in the door.
Morrad: (16:14)
With that kind of kitchen, I was basically in the hood, in South East LA. I don’t know if anybody’s familiar with it, but it’s very dangerous. One block away was the West Side. So everything is fine and it looks like Dubai, you know. But the thing that was interesting is that my connections were all from the West Side because I knew some French chefs, I knew some Italian chefs and all these kinds of guys. So in my kitchen, I started doing very gourmet meals and then I would try to sell it to the West Side; the nice neighborhoods, you know. Eventually, the business was doing very well because we were cooking from one head to another. We were cooking for very important people in the movie industry. And we were invited to homes to cook and stuff like that.
Rana Nawas: (17:06)
Okay, so who was cooking? You were cooking?
Morrad: (17:10)
I was cooking but all my friends were French…and I was cooking as well because I was learning from the best Chefs in town. See, we all like to come and taste food and stuff, so it was an open kitchen. Eventually, I moved to also opening a coffee shop. And that’s the other funny story is that we opened it one block away, still in a very scary neighborhood. There were empty spots that nobody wanted to take the risk of opening a coffee shop there. And that was at a time when Starbucks was was taking every single corner, but this corner was empty, even Starbucks did not want to take it. So, it’s kind of funny. So, there was one Starbucks, actually, in a nice neighborhood, like one block away in a nice neighborhood, but not in this bad neighborhood. The only guy who took a bet was Magic Johnson, who wanted to open Starbucks in an inner city, I don’t know if you recall, but that never happened. So, I said, “I’m going to take this Coffee Shop and build it in the inner city and I will bring the people from the West into my coffee shop.” So when I pitched this to the landlord, she looked at me said, “okay, you’re crazy, but that’s fine and I like you so much that I’m going to give you 12 months of free rent!”
Rana Nawas: (18:25)
Free rent?
Morrad: (18:25)
Yeah, free rent.
Rana Nawas: (18:27)
Why?
Sharene: (18:28)
Well, it was a property value, right? It was in her neighborhood, so she wanted to have some stores that would bring better traffic and increase the property.
Morrad: (18:42)
She wanted me to bring students from USC, which is one of the richest universities…
Rana Nawas: (18:52)
University of Southern California?
Sharene: (18:54)
Yeah.
Rana Nawas: (18:54)
Okay.
Morrad: (18:54)
…and bring them to the neighborhoods, which would increase their property value. That’s what I pitched to her, you know. And she’s like “okay,” and she told me, that there’s a freeway here that no one is going to cross. So I said, “okay, let’s try.” Eventually she agreed. So I got 12 months. I built the place. It was so beautiful and nice – all refurbished and we ran out of money.
Sharene: (19:18)
You know, speaking about this building, the restaurant, it was originally an office space. So we needed to put in a kitchen and all of that. So in the US, you have to get permits and licenses, right? So you have to go to the building department and they have this thing called “Plan Check.” So they’ll check your plans and of course, we didn’t have money for an architect, so I had to go to Kinko’s, which is a photocopy place, and I would somehow draw it and photocopy it, so that it’s huge and it looks like a blueprint. And every time I go, they say, “no, no.” And I keep going. And they keep saying, “no, change this, change that, change this, change that.” Until one day I was ready to give up, really. And so I was just with the guy and his boss walks by, looks at me and I was wearing a hijab at the time, he was like, “oh, alsalamu a’alaykom (peace be with you – a Muslim greeting) sister, how are you?” I’m like, “I’m fine, thanks.” And so what’s happening? What are you doing? And he says, “oh yeah, I know she has this issue here, but you know, she can’t do this because the bathroom was in the wrong place.” And he’s like, “yallah (go ahead), no problem. Go approve it. It’s a minor issue.” So it was, it was fortuitous. That could have taken months and by the time we wouldn’t have…
Morrad: (20:35)
That was even worse because we were in historical LA; all buildings had to comply with historical backgrounds. So even moving a brick was a big deal.
Sharene: (20:51)
He literally felt sorry for me, I think because he’d been there…how many times already? Countless and I have no idea. It was every day. Every day we would go back just to get the place built.
Rana Nawas: (21:01)
And okay. So then back to the coffee shop, what happened?
Morrad: (21:05)
Yes. So, she was saying we almost died out of our cash, to open the place. So we had a beautiful coffee shop with a wooden floor that I kept because it was all original. And brick wall, a very beautiful brick wall that I kept as well. So she’s like, “okay, you know what? You have like $1,000 left for furniture.” And we needed to open the next day, otherwise we would just close. At the time, her father would always tell me to buy a pickup. So actually, I listened to his advice, but I don’t surf and I don’t do anything, I never use it. So I’m like, “okay, finally I find a use for my pickup truck.” I took one of my friends and I told him that we need to go to West LA, into those neighborhoods and we need to roam the whole night to actually find furniture.
Sharene: (22:10)
Trash can surfing.
Rana Nawas: (22:12)
Wait, so you had $1,000 to furnish the entire coffee shop overnight?
Morrad: (22:15)
Yes. Overnight. The next night. So what I took the pickup truck and I went with a friend of mine and we went to some neighborhoods, good neighborhoods, and I was finding some furniture… Tables, chairs, furniture that the Americans, in general, would put outside and you can just take it. So we started roaming, we found chairs, we went to some restaurants and hotels. We found a very nice marble table. So we went and started collecting the stuff.
Rana Nawas: (22:47)
So you did garbage collection overnight?
Morrad: (22:49)
It was all old furniture.
Sharene: (22:50)
You see, trash has always been in our lives.
Morrad: (22:53)
It was some kind of buying second hand and so I was recycling all this furniture. I even, at one point, was working with my friend and saw a very nice sofa and the sofa was like our icon into our shop. So I’m looking at the sofa and then far away, there was a homeless guy coming and he jumped to sit on the sofa. It was my first time fighting with a guy and I said “let go, man. That’s mine.” So that was kind of my toughest time with the game. So I said to the man “listen, I give you 10 bucks and you let it go.” So I give him some money. Boom. He liked it. So we took it and put in the truck. I even had Starbucks chairs that I found as well. They had been dumped, so I had to remove…anyways, so I brought all these things and then the next morning, we had the whole setup. It was full of furniture and I had a friend who was painting them a little bit, making some designs, you know, and they all looked unique.
Sharene: (23:55)
Yeah. Because nothing looked the same.
Morrad: (23:56)
Nothing looked the same.
Rana Nawas: (23:58)
And did people come?
Morrad: (24:00)
No, we opened at 6 o’clock in the morning and there was no body until 8-9 o’clock, not even a single coffee sold.
Sharene: (24:07)
No, no. The first day we did get one table.
Morrad: (24:10)
Yeah, they wanted to watch the Lakers game. I wasn’t going to take that anymore, so the next day I went to Starbucks. At nine, they were closing at 9 o’clock. So I went to Starbucks with some coupons of my coffee shop and I stopped at every single table and said that Starbucks was closing at 9 o’clock and I’ll be opened till 12. I gave them free coffee, “the regular Joe” for free and free internet. I even had the first Apple product, the iMac and it was the first coffee shop with an iMac and wifi. And so I said to them “you can have free internet, electrical free and free coffee.” So all those kids said “what’s the location?” So I said, “just follow me.” So I start bringing them and my wife was there, the barista was there and I was bringing people. I filled up the whole restaurant. The second night, it was packed with students…
Rana Nawas: (25:12)
From 9pm onwards, it was packed?
Morrad: (25:15)
Yeah. And by the way, they came with this coupon of regular coffee, which I knew they will not drink regular coffee, they all drink latte. So actually they said, “no, I don’t want this regular coffee.” So we gave them what they wanted and we made money on the go, right away. And then the next day, a friend of mine was working for LAPD, he was a cop. I said, “listen, I need you to come. I will give you free coffee. But the only thing I need from you is to let your car, with the lights on…”
Rana Nawas: (25:44)
With the siren?
Morrad: (25:44)
“With the siren, and when people come, they can see it.” He said, “okay, that’s all you need?” I said, “yeah. Just come and I’ll give you a double espresso, the one you like, for free.” So he said “okay!”
Sharene: (25:59)
So, there were two cop cars parked in front…
Rana Nawas: (25:59)
…with the siren on…
Sharene: (25:59)
…in front of the coffee shop.
Morrad: (26:05)
So what I did was basically I bought a lineup. I said bring all your team. They will all get coffee. So they brought like six cars, six police, LAPD and my coffee shop, where there were no signs or any of these things and the kids were passing by and looking at what’s going on. Oh, there is a coffee shop there and that’s it. So they were all happy.
Rana Nawas: (26:26)
That’s insane.
Morrad: (26:27)
Yeah. So the owner of the property was actually very happy with what we’ve done and we kind of moved the barrier of inequality, I would say. Inequality where people were willing to come to the hood to see what was happening. And alhamdillah (Thanks be to God, in Arabic) it happened in less than 12 months. So, there is no barrier, actually. When people are saying that there is a barrier and stuff like, if you really want to make it happen…
Sharene: (26:50)
You know, you really have to hack it. So, I was just back in LA last year and the coffee shop was still there.
Rana Nawas: (26:56)
Well, okay. So, why did you sell it?
Sharene: (26:58)
It was getting a little hard. It was very tiring and it was very long hours. So we’d be there from 6 until 2 in the morning, sometimes.
Rana Nawas: (27:08)
Wow.
Sharene: (27:09)
And it was getting a little bit crazy. We wanted to do something different. And also at the time, we had our first child and I was like, “I want to take care of him.” So, many reasons.
Morrad: (27:22)
It was also an opportunity. Actually, what happened was that we spent $70,000 on the venture and somebody came and said “I’ll give you half a million dollars,” after 12 months.
Rana Nawas: (27:32)
Wow.
Morrad: (27:33)
So I am saying, mixing all this coffee for the next 20 years? No. So I’m like, okay, why not sell it? So it was an opportunity for us to move and I like to build things and move on. You know, I get bored there. I know that I arrive at a point where I build it, it is happening, then I like…
Sharene: (27:55)
Sell and move on.
Rana Nawas: (27:56)
How do you know what the right price is? I mean, you get an offer and you’re like “anything over the $70,000 is a good deal? So $500,000 will cut it?” Any other logic?
Morrad: (28:08)
Actually, I was cheated because I got half a million dollars and six months later, he sold it for $1 million.
Rana Nawas: (28:15)
Oh Wow!
Sharene: (28:16)
Actually, the right price is whatever people are willing to pay, what the market is willing to pay, that’s generally the right price.
Rana Nawas: (28:26)
Okay. So, you moved on and what happened next?
Sharene: (28:30)
So we moved here. We were on a world tour for a little bit, we had a little bit of cash. So, we went to visit his family in France, Amsterdam, Belgium, all these places. Then we went to visit my family in Southeast Asia, so Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia. And then we came here, to the Middle East, to check it out and see what’s new because he had a bunch of friends from here through the University. So then we were like, “okay, where do we want to live now?” And honestly, when we came here, we saw it as the land of opportunity. You know, this was 2005, Sheikh Zayed Road had 10 buildings. Nothing was done. None of this was here yet. So we were like, wow, this is a place where we can come, make something and build something up again.
Rana Nawas: (29:17)
By this point, how many children did you have?
Morrad: (29:20)
Oh three.
Sharene: (29:21)
I don’t know.
Morrad: (29:21)
We had three.
Rana Nawas: (29:22)
Okay. So for everyone’s benefit, Sharene and Morrad have six children and they build business, sell business, build business, sell business and somehow six children came along.
Sharene: (29:32)
Three children by that time.
Rana Nawas: (29:34)
All right. Let’s come back to six children. How on earth do you manage? I mean, you’re equal business partners. You both work. So how do you manage with the care, the education? Let’s start with the care.
Sharene: (29:49)
So I’m going to say this and it’s not going to sound good, but I’m going to say it: Lowered expectations. Lower your expectations and everything works out well. Seriously. It’s not easy and it’s very chaotic and we cannot do a lot of things that, you know, I would like to do for my kids, but we do the best that we can. So my philosophy on this is you have to outsource everything that doesn’t require you to do. So for example, if somebody else can cook, let that somebody else cook or if you have to, eat out. If somebody else can clean, let that somebody else clean. I only want to do the things, for my children, that nobody else but the mother can do. And usually that’s affection, that’s education, that’s spending time with them. So this is my philosophy. I’m like, okay, just focus on those tasks, that only the mother can do. Everything else, just outsource it.
Rana Nawas: (30:49)
So let’s talk about education. How do you educate six children while the two of you are working?
Morrad: (30:57)
We tried different things, you know. We tried putting them in school, which was great, but you know, they just socialized and do some things. But I’m the wrong dad because I don’t believe in the educational system as it is. I think it’s broken. I was one of those victims. I was a failure of the educational system. It took me 25 years to get my degree. So, I don’t believe in it. You know, instead of nurturing the kids, they try to put them in a box. But the ball doesn’t fit in the box here and that’s what I’m seeing when I look at the educational system today. So I was like petrified when I dropped my kids, I said “please don’t give me A’s. Please don’t give me A’s.” And they asked why and I said, “because an A student works for a B student” you know. That’s the first thing I’ve learned. So it’s fairly difficult and I know I’m going to be very controversial, some of the parents ask, “are you crazy? What are you doing for your kids?” And blah, blah, blah. That’s a little bit of my controversy. So at one point, I actually decided to home school. I’m in the start-up scene, I am a start-up founder. I think it was last year, there was a competition for kids with the top schools in Dubai, GEMS School, you name it. My kids are home schooled. I took them and they won the competition.
Sharene: (32:25)
It was an entrepreneurial pitch.
Morrad: (32:25)
Yeah and they were all fantastic kids. Amazing stories, amazing businesses. I was like, wow, “I want to invest in those companies.” They were all very good kids. And guess what? They surprised me because Abdullah, Miriam, Ahmad and AbdelRahman were the first and they took the first prize.
Rana Nawas: (32:44)
So they won the pitch. What business did they pitch?
Morrad: (32:46)
It was a game book. Of course, they wanted to surf on my marketplace and they said “Dad we want to take your customers, get them to give us books, DVDs and games” and that they would sell them online, with a subscription, so kids can go online and can buy or subscribe to a book every month. You get six books sent to your home. They came up with the whole project themselves. I said “kids don’t have money. How are you going to make money?” They said, “no, we are targeting the mother.” So, they had it all figured out. So, it’s interesting.
Rana Nawas: (33:25)
So, home schooling is working for you guys?
Sharene & Morrad: (33:27)
Yeah.
Sharene: (33:27)
I mean, we are very unconventional in that sense.
Morrad: (33:31)
We used to clash on that because she’s more into the thinking, you know, Singapore Model, best school, you go work hard…
Sharene: (33:39)
And everyone is like “don’t copy my work.’
Morrad: (33:46)
So, where she’s coming from is also different. She wants a proper education, things have to be done that way. But eventually we compromised. I’m happy the way things are going and she’s also happy.
Rana Nawas: (34:02)
So let’s take it back to business. Would you recommend starting your own business? Is it for everyone?
Sharene: (34:11)
Oh, I don’t think so. I think you’re either born an entrepreneur or you’re not because it takes a certain amount of craziness to do what we do. You have to be a little bit off. You cannot be too rational. Otherwise, everything will tell you “no.” If you try to do the something with a pro and con list, before starting a business, you’ll always end up with, “no, I shouldn’t start a business.” You have to be a little bit crazy and believe in the impossible, then you can last. Otherwise, you’re going to give up halfway.
Rana Nawas: (34:43)
So, you think people are born entrepreneurs or not?
Sharene: (34:46)
Yeah, this is how I feel about it.
Rana Nawas: (34:49)
Morrad , what do you think?
Morrad: (34:50)
Well first of all, I’m not hireable. You know, the way I look, I cannot get a job.
Rana Nawas: (34:58)
Completely unemployable.
Morrad: (34:58)
So you know, I cannot find a job.
Sharene: (35:03)
He’s been fired from every job he’s had. FYI.
Morrad: (35:03)
Yes, I did. I get fired very often. I cannot last because I would just speak my mind and I would say to my manager “you’re wrong.” And he’s like, “okay, you’re fired.” I say, “I agree. I’m fired.” So I used to get fired a lot when I was back in the US and in France. But again, I don’t believe that you’re born an entrepreneur. I have to disagree with my wife, which I often do. I think that it’s a skill that you can learn, actually. It is all about opportunities. You’re doing something on a day-to-day basis in your job, your work and you realize that, wow, there is something that can be done better. I know that because I’m at in that position. I’m doing it now and I think, “what do I do now? Do I quit the job? Do I take a bet on that?” And that’s when the “aha” moment comes, you know? Because what’s happening is that the opportunity really comes at the moment where nobody else knows, but only you know, because you’re doing it right now. Then after that, it becomes a matter of “should I quit? And “how do I get people to be involved and willing to take me seriously into that journey?” And you know what? Back then when I was in the US, I was taking a course, a business course, and two things really struck me. The first thing; I was taking that course with a successful businessman. Yes, he came in, it was Business 101, and he said “we should not teach business 101. We should teach failure 101.” And that was back then, 25 years ago! It was back then 25 years ago. I said “why?” He said, “1000 times and I succeeded only one time. And that’s my business today.” He said, “take the book and dump it in a trashcan. I don’t want you to follow these textbooks.” That was the first question mark. The second thing that was interesting; an African American lady came in and she was teaching Business Communication and she brought this book called “A Pay Check Away from Poverty.” That was it. So we are all a pay check away from poverty, if we choose to work for someone. And that was it. So if you guys want to be a pay check away from poverty and don’t try to understand that there is another world waiting for you, just take the bet and surround yourself with smart people to make it happen. But everybody, I believe, can be an entrepreneur.
Rana Nawas: (37:39)
We’ve talked about the role of women in business and family. Do you think it’s possible to make money and do good at the same time?
Sharene: (37:50)
I do not only think it’s possible but I think it’s necessary. And I think that this is how all businesses should be, from this day forth or since yesterday. Because if you can do both, then you’ll do more of it. If you can make money while doing good, then you’re going to try to make more money and end up doing more good. So if we all have this in your mindset, we built businesses that have social good, I mean, profitable businesses that have social goals, we’re going to keep pushing that social good because we’re making money at the same time. The problem with charities and I’m not saying it’s a problem, but why do people get burnt out when they work for charities? Because they don’t make money and eventually they need to move on. They need to have lives. They need to earn a pay check. So they end up abandoning the charity and going on to work in the private sector. But if you build a business where you are both doing good and making money, you’ll just keep going forever.
Morrad: (38:50)
Yeah. And actually look, people are very savvy now. In one minute, I can know exactly what a company does at any given time. I can tell you where Apple product is built, for example, I can just back flash right away. So the news is going around really fast. The consumer, my kids now, they don’t consume the way I consume. So, they say what is this company doing good, for me to be a part of that. So you have all these kinds of demands. You know, I don’t want to own anything anymore. I don’t want to own a car. I don’t want to own a home. I don’t want to own any clothes, a phone maybe. So you have this kind of consciousnesses among the young generation who really want to be impactors and really have a social impact. So I believe, in any business that you start, if you don’t have a social impact component within your business, integrated from day one, you are in trouble because anybody will come with a social impact and do the same thing, I will go for the social impact business.
Rana Nawas: (40:02)
Thank you. It’s an expectation, now, of the consumer.
Morrad: (40:05)
Definitely.
Rana Nawas: (40:06)
Thank you so much Sharene and Morrad. For people who want to follow you or find out more about Melltoo, where do they go?
Morrad: (40:12)
They go to Sharene. Actually, Sharene is the one who’s running the whole thing, I am just talking. But I’m impressed by the way my wife works. She manages a team of 25 and not only that, but she is also a very good example to my children and my daughters, my two daughters and my mom.
Sharene: (40:30)
You’re going to make me cry. Stop.
Morrad: (40:30)
So you know. They always say there’s always a woman behind every man. In that case, I can testify that there’s a man behind the woman.
Rana Nawas: (40:42)
Yes. Great. Well thank you everyone. Thank you. Thank you.
Rana Nawas: (40:48)
I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. I’d love to hear from you, so please head over to whenwomenwinpodcast.com to get feedback. While you’re there, you can find all episodes and show notes and sign up for our monthly newsletter. Wherever you’re listening right now, do remember to hit the subscribe button to be notified of future episodes, and please write a review when you can, to let others know what to expect. Thanks, and have a great day!